On May 3rd, 2023, Dr. Vivek Murthy, the U.S. Surgeon General, released a national plan to fight against our country’s “loneliness epidemic”. In his opening statement, he wrote: "When I first took office as Surgeon General in 2014, I didn’t view loneliness as a public health concern. But that was before I embarked on a cross-country listening tour, where I heard stories from my fellow Americans that surprised me. People began to tell me they felt isolated, invisible, and insignificant. Even when they couldn’t put their finger on the word “lonely,” time and time again, people of all ages and socioeconomic backgrounds would tell me, “I have to shoulder all of life’s burdens by myself,” or “if I disappear tomorrow, no one will even notice.” It was a lightbulb moment for me: social disconnection was far more common than I had realized." The research supports what Dr. Murthy heard, and the consequences of loneliness and social isolation are troubling. Recently, about one-in-two adults in America reported experiencing loneliness, nearly 1 in 4 Wisconsinites report that they only sometimes or never get the social and emotional support they need; and even more troubling, caregivers of children, especially mothers and single parents, are more likely to experience feelings of loneliness. And that was before COVID-19 cut off so many of us from our support systems, exacerbating loneliness and isolation. Loneliness is far more than just a bad feeling—it is associated with a greater risk of cardiovascular disease, dementia, stroke, depression, anxiety, and premature death. The mortality impact of being socially disconnected is similar to that caused by smoking up to 15 cigarettes a day. While these realities are cause for concern, I believe the fact that we are talking about social isolation and its harms is the first important step in confronting it, in shifting the narrative towards how we build and strengthen social connectedness. So how might we build a movement that brings people and organizations together to destigmatize loneliness and change our cultural and policy response to it? I invited Linda Hall and Rebecca Murray to help answer that question by sharing their expertise on the underlying root causes of social isolation; the positive impacts of social connectedness on child development and family prosperity; and the promising and proven practices and policies that effectively strengthen the social connectedness of families that may be at risk of child neglect and family separation. Their work leading Wisconsin’s Office of Children’s Mental Health and Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board has prioritized social connectedness for children and families through research and advocacy, and the promotion of practices and frameworks such as Five for Families, the Five Categories of Social Connectedness for Youth, and Family Resource Centers.
Host: Luke Waldo
Experts:
:00-:32 – Rebecca Murray – “When there is stability, financial stability, economic stability in the household, the stress on parents is so much lower that, most of the time, organic social connections happen for them. Right? Because when they are parenting, more than likely, their kids are at school, they’re at childcare, their after-school program, so there are natural settings where they will connect with other parents.”
:33-6:23 – Luke Waldo – Introduction to Social Isolation and Social Connectedness, and Rebecca Murray and Linda Hall.
6:24-9:47 – Rebecca Murray – Social connections are one of five protective factors, which are central to strengthening families and healthy child development.
9:48-9:52 – Luke – Same question for Linda.
9:53-14:49 – Linda Hall – While OCMH’s focus is on children, they know that everything that happens to children happens within the context of family. Using a Collective Impact framework, they asked what would have the greatest impact on children’s mental health; social connectedness was the answer.
14:50-16:11 – Luke – Acknowledging OCMH and CANPB’s work to elevate and integrate the voice of lived experience.
16:12-17:01 - Luke – What does social isolation look like? How does it contribute to the overload of stress on families?
17:02-18:51 – Rebecca – Social isolation can occur in rural and urban settings. It doesn’t discriminate. What’s available to us in our communities?
18:52-20:36 - Linda – Structural issues get in the way. They may not be able to access healthcare to treat their concerns. Data shows that 34% of families in Wisconsin right now can’t manage a “survival” budget, and poverty causes families to become overloaded by stress.
20:37-22:33 – Rebecca – Family Resource Centers can provide some financial supports to families to be able to overcome those challenges. Children watch and learn from their parents, so supporting their parents’ knowledge and development is important. Parent Cafés can provide a more organic approach to this.
22:34-24:06 - Linda – School mental health. 75% of all children who are receiving mental health services get it through their school. We have over 300 schools with a youth-led mental health program.
24:07-25:46 - Luke – What are the underlying root causes of social isolation?
25:47-26:43 - Linda – Trust deficits lead to disengagement with systems like our schools, mental health services, etc. Children then follow their parents’ behavior and become more isolated from those services that might support them.
26:44-28:26 - Rebecca – The Working poor have less time to engage with organic social connections like after-school activities with their children. We also have a cultural norm in this country of not asking for help.
28:27-30:55 - Linda – We need a “before stage 4 mental health system” to support the mental well-being of our children and families before it becomes a crisis.
30:56-31:58 - Rebecca – CANPB funds FAST, which has adapted its program to meet new needs.
31:59-36:56 - Luke – Story about Child Witness and creating safe and supportive spaces through breaking bread with family and friends.
36:57-37:18 - Linda – Social isolation is not a choice.
37:19-37:43 - Rebecca – Social isolation does not discriminate.
37:44-38:54 - Linda – Social isolation vs. loneliness. How people respond to social isolation varies widely depending on what they’ve learned.
38:55-39:41 - Luke – How does social connectedness empower families and reduce the risk of child neglect?
39:42-42:44 - Rebecca –Universal family support. Parent Cafes that are built around Protective Factors. Break bread together, provide child activities, and create an environment where it is parent-led.
42:45-43:46 - Linda – Building parents’ confidence and trust can translate to their support of their children’s needs and services.
43:47-46:29 - Luke – Building trust. How might we strengthen families through the promotion of social connectedness?
46:30-47:31 - Linda – Pandemic-era economic programs kept 52 million people out of poverty, so we can’t ignore the importance of economic stability for social connectedness.
47:32-48:19 - Luke – Economic stability is another Critical Pathway.
48:20-50:41 - Rebecca – Economic stability leads to organic social connections. Engage parents to understand what they need to be able to participate in their community.
50:42-52:10 - Linda – Unstable housing creates a lot of stress on children and families. Peer support makes a difference in achieving wellness. Paid peer support positions can help with transitions from school to home.
52:11-53:16 - Rebecca – We need to take a hard look at where we invest our tax dollars. Investing in children and families is an investment in our future.
53:17-54:27 - Luke – How do we overcome the barriers that impede social connectedness?
54:28-56:05 - Linda – Governor Evers proposed $280 million for school mental health, but only $10 million was approved by the legislature. We need to invest in our mental health like we do in our physical health.
56:06-57:22 - Rebecca – We are the only developed nation without universal paid family leave. We need to talk about this as an investment.
57:23-1:01:27 - Luke – Our messaging around destigmatization has been successful, which has led to more people normalizing mental healthcare, which has led to greater demands on the system. What makes you optimistic about the future of this work?
1:01:28-1:04:42 - Linda – Supporting adults. How do we increase opportunities to create a sense of belonging for youth through community activities? Trusted peer relationships for teens make the biggest difference and last longest, so we need to build off the skills that they learn from their parents to develop healthy relationships. Young people are openly seeking support, and are telling us what they need.
1:04:43-1:05:52 - Rebecca – Collaborations like this where we come together to leverage each other’s strengths. Family Resource Centers can provide that space for greater collaboration.
1:05:53-1:06:26 - Linda – Social connectedness is a priority.
1:06:27-1:07:06 - Luke – What author or book has shaped your thinking?
1:07:07-1:07:32 - Rebecca – Book recommendations.
1:07:33-1:08:59 - Linda – Book recommendations.
1:09:00-1:10:09 – Closing Thoughts and Gratitude
1:10:10-1:12:13 - Luke - 3 Key Takeaways
1:12:14-1:13:44 – Luke – Closing Credits
Join the conversation and connect with us!
Rebecca Murray 00:03
When there is stability, financial stability, economic stability in a household that stress on parents is so much lower that most of the time organic social connections happen for them, right because when they are parenting, more than likely their kids are at school, they're at childcare, they're at after school programs. So there's natural settings where they will connect with other parents.
Luke Waldo 00:42
Welcome to season 2 of Overloaded: Understanding Neglect, where we explore the Critical Pathways that lead to child and family well-being and reduce family separations for reasons of neglect.
Hey everyone, this is Luke Waldo, your host for this podcast series and the Director of Program Design and Community Engagement for the Institute for Child and Family Well-being, our partnership between Children’s Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee’s Helen Bader School of Social Welfare.
Luke Waldo 01:25
On May 3rd, 2023, Dr. Vivek Murthy, the U.S. Surgeon General, released a national plan to fight against our country’s “loneliness epidemic”. In his opening statement, he wrote:
"When I first took office as Surgeon General in 2014, I didn’t view loneliness as a public health concern. But that was before I embarked on a cross-country listening tour, where I heard stories from my fellow Americans that surprised me. People began to tell me they felt isolated, invisible, and insignificant. Even when they couldn’t put their finger on the word “lonely,” time and time again, people of all ages and socioeconomic backgrounds would tell me, “I have to shoulder all of life’s burdens by myself,” or “if I disappear tomorrow, no one will even notice.”
It was a lightbulb moment for me: social disconnection was far more common than I had realized."
The research supports what Dr. Murthy heard, and the consequences of loneliness and social isolation are troubling.
Recently, about one-in-two adults in America reported experiencing loneliness, nearly 1 in 4 Wisconsinites report that they only sometimes or never get the social and emotional support they need; and even more troubling, caregivers of children, especially mothers and single parents, are more likely to experience feelings of loneliness. And that was before COVID-19 cut off so many of us from our support systems, exacerbating loneliness and isolation. Loneliness is far more than just a bad feeling—it is associated with a greater risk of cardiovascular disease, dementia, stroke, depression, anxiety, and premature death. The mortality impact of being socially disconnected is similar to that caused by smoking up to 15 cigarettes a day.
During the past year, our partners from across the state shared stories with us of overloaded families who were often at greater risk of child neglect because they were socially isolated. When asked what was underlying their social isolation, they shared that there are:
While these realities are cause for concern, I believe the fact that we are talking about social isolation and its harms is the first important step in confronting it, in shifting the narrative towards how we build and strengthen social connectedness. So how might we build a movement that brings people and organizations together to destigmatize loneliness and change our cultural and policy response to it?
I invited Linda Hall and Rebecca Murray to help answer that question by sharing their expertise on the underlying root causes of social isolation; the positive impacts of social connectedness on child development and family prosperity; and the promising and proven practices and policies that effectively strengthen the social connectedness of families that may be at risk of child neglect and family separation. Their work leading Wisconsin’s Office of Children’s Mental Health and Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board has prioritized social connectedness for children and families through research and advocacy, and the promotion of practices and frameworks such as Five for Families, the Five Categories of Social Connectedness for Youth, and Family Resource Centers.
Linda Hall is the Director of Wisconsin’s Office of Children’s Mental Health. The well-being of children has been a primary focus of Linda’s career in health and mental health policy. She has pursued this children’s well-being and increased support for families agenda at the National Governors’ Association, the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, and Kids Forward, as Executive Director of the Wisconsin Association of Family & Children’s Agencies and as Interim Director for Community Partnerships, Dane County’s wraparound program. Since being appointed by Governor Evers in 2019 to lead the Office of Children’s Mental Health, she has had the privilege of collaborating with state and mental health leaders, youth with lived experience, and parent partners to improve the children’s mental health system and highlight what we all can do to support the well-being of children.
Rebecca Murray joined the Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board in 2011 and is currently the Executive Director. In her previous position at the Prevention Board, Ms. Murray administered the grants program and provided technical assistance to the Prevention Board grantees. Ms. Murray is a certified trainer for “Bringing the Protective Factors Framework to Life in Your Work” and a Triple P Seminars accredited practitioner. Ms. Murray is also the Executive Director for the Celebrate Children Foundation, the fundraising agency for the Prevention Board.
Linda and Rebecca, thank you again for joining us for this conversation, and for your partnership and guidance that you have given to our team over the years and to our current initiative.
I’d like to begin our conversation by learning more about you and your experience as it relates to the impacts of social isolation and social connectedness on children and families. Welcome.
Rebecca Murray 06:24
Yeah, thanks, Luke, for inviting both of us here, letting us highlight some of our work and talk about social connectedness. So for the Prevention Board, is what I'm going to call it moving forward. It's the Wisconsin Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board. But we'll make it shorter, make it easier on all of us. We have focused our work around the protective factors. So from the Center for the Study of Social Policy, what we know from these five protective factors that their characteristics, attributions that all families have, and when they do get strengthened, not only does it reduce the likelihood of abuse and neglect, which is a great goal, but it actually moves us towards optimal child development. So it's, it's a little bit of preventing that negative, but really thinking about flourishing and thriving children and families. So I bring those up, because one of them is social connections, we know that it is so important, important for parents to have social connections in a variety of them. So within the work that we do, funding, mainly family resource centers, but other community-based agencies, we really want to make sure that the programs and services that they're offering are based and grounded in those protective factors. They provide opportunities for parents to meet other parents, because part of having strong and positive social connections is making sure you have a little bit of a shared experience, that parenting experience, you're starting with kind of knowing something about somebody, we need to move that into maybe a trusting relationship, but it's a start to have that variety of social connections. So that's really the work that we do. For outward facing, we have the Five for Families website. So we worked with a number of parents and grandparents around the state, and asked them to put the language in everyday terms. Social and emotional competence of kids is one of those protective factors. And really, that's that's bi-directional. We are talking about parents knowing how to self-regulate themselves as you are teaching your children these things. But those aren't terms everyday grandmas and grandpas, and parents use. So we really wanted to have a forward-facing website for anyone to learn about the protective factors. And that's really called Five for Families. So it came down to five strengths that all families have, and that just like muscles, they can be improved. And really, our work has evolved around making sure that everything that we do is grounded in that work. Not one is more important than the other. But they're all connected, right? Just like social connections. When you have those social connections, you might be a little bit more empowered at a Family Resource Center to ask somebody, well, what other services do they have? Is there the availability of maybe some concrete supports to help my family? Is there a class to learn about child development? So all five of them are very important, but they're all so connected. So that's really the evolution of focusing on social connections in our agency.
Luke Waldo 09:47
Thank you, Rebecca. And I'll pass it over to you Linda, for the same question.
Linda Hall 09:52
Thank you, Luke, thanks for the opportunity to be here for this discussion with you and with my good partner Rebecca Murray. We at the Office of Children's Mental Health focus more on children, although always recognizing that everything that happens for children happens in the context of family. So everything that the Prevention Board does is important to us their emphasis on Five for Families, is part of the foundation that we look to, to help kids. Our office has been, is about to celebrate a 10 year anniversary in 2024. And for much of that decade, was focused on trauma-informed care, and connecting with people with lived experience, and really contributed, has contributed a lot in terms of bringing those things to the table, and improving what's happening for children in our state. But more recently, we decided to take a look at what else would make a difference for kids. And we really operate through a collective impact lens. So we are always looking to see how many stakeholders can we bring to our table, who can help us identify the key issues we should be addressing and what the solutions are. And so as we as we did that, we asked ourselves, what's the one thing that we could do that would matter for kids across the lifespan, and we consider our target group to be children from infancy to 26. We go all the way up to 26 because brains are still growing in the early 20s. And for when children have a mental illness, especially a serious mental illness, then they're still in the system and transitioning to the adult system. And we're concerned about how that transition happens. So as we looked at what was happening across the lifespan for kids, we saw a number of things. We saw that in childcare, there were and there continued to be too many expulsions from childcare. We saw in the early years that kids are in Wisconsin are having difficulty making and retaining friendships, we saw that at the teen years there was a higher-than-average suicide rate. And then in that, in those older years, that issue of transitioning to the adult system that I mentioned. So we looked across this, we saw what would make a difference for everyone across here, and what could we get everyone working on together. And we decided that the one thing was social connectedness of youth. So we looked around, we saw that this was a priority issue for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And we we created a definition, a working definition around this that youth are socially connected when they are actively engaged in positive relationships, where they feel they belong, are safe, cared for, valued, and supported. So with this working definition, we brought people together, we brought a broader group of people together than we had been working with, to say, what does this mean? And how would we create an action agenda around this? And so we spent the last year and a half or so with people from all different sectors, coming to the table and saying, Okay, these are some of the things that we should do, that will make a difference. And we identified five categories of connectedness and decided. And of those five, we focused on three: supportive adults, cultural identity, and community and family. And so those we now have action suggestions from our teams, and in 2024, we're intending to carry that out more and to look more closely in terms of evaluation to see are we making some progress with some of these? I would just like to mention also that as you started, in your introduction, talking about the loneliness epidemic, we really work across generations and have engaged people from the Wisconsin Coalition to Reduce Social Isolation that is focused around the elderly. We have we are really working with them and looking for two-generation solutions to this loneliness and isolation issue.
Luke Waldo 14:49
Thank you, Linda. I want to highlight I think you both alluded to it, but I want to highlight the important work that you both do in your roles, and that your organizations do in the engagement of and the elevation of the voice of lived experience. And not only in understanding what is really happening in our communities, and what's happening to the youth and the families, that we, that we serve across the state, but also elevating the voices of those with lived experience in places of advocacy, and, and real change, right for themselves and for their communities. And so, I want to, I want to put that out there at the beginning of this conversation, because I think it's really what has drawn us so much on our team, to your work, and to your team is because you've done an incredible job of a really balancing kind of research, right, leaning into the evidence, as both of you have already talked about, and bringing the experiences of families here in Wisconsin, into that evidence to really find practical solutions for those that we serve. So, so thank you both for that introduction. I do want to kind of shift back to the introduction that I shared, before you both began, in which we heard many stories in our community roundtables this past year about how families are really overloaded by stress, and particularly, are overloaded by stress when they're socially isolated, or at the very least disconnected from the supports that could help them overcome the overload. I would like to explore the realities of social isolation with you, particularly as you and your agency see them occurring here in Wisconsin. So I'll kick it over to whoever's ready. What does social isolation look like, here in Wisconsin, in particular, and how does it contribute to the overload of stress on families?
Rebecca Murray 17:02
I can go ahead and start, this is Rebecca. And, and I will say there's no one answer on what social isolation looks like. I think many listeners, if you hear social isolation, you may need to immediately think about rural Wisconsin where there's large distances between houses and farms and neighbors, and that transportation becomes a you know, a huge barrier. And that is true. And individuals who live in suburban and urban settings can also have a sense of social isolation. Part of it is really, again, what surrounds us, right? What's available within our community for families. And again, I'm going to speak about families for them to be able to outreach and find social connections. We know that many people don't live in close proximity to say their immediate those natural social connections, right, their siblings, their parents, their grandparents. So then how do you find and make those other social connections? So it can look different. In the sense of it happens in our rural areas, or urban areas, or suburban areas, it happens across our different diversity, our different families that live here. Also, I think people will think about maybe so single parents is maybe having more like social isolation than households that have two parents, and it can occur in all of those settings. And, Linda, I don't know if you want to talk about what social isolation maybe looks like for our children a little bit different than our parents.
Linda Hall 18:52
Yeah, what you know, when I think about social isolation, and what children are experiencing in the midst of our youth mental health crisis, I really think about the structural issues. There are so many systems in place that make it difficult for parents, especially parents of low or moderate income, to support their families and have what they need. The social structure, the structures get in the way and then they may not have adequate health insurance to address the health and wellness issues that they have. And they may, they may not be able to afford the kinds of normal things that we want kids to experience like extracurricular activities, so that they can develop their connections. And we are looking, we are seeing increasingly that participation in extracurricular activities are really important to kids feeling like they belong, which in turn is important to wellness. So we really want to look at, you know, the rates of poverty, the rates of low income, how many people are unable to really manage just a survival budget. The data we're looking at now shows that 34% of families in Wisconsin cannot really manage a survival budget. So they're working full time, and not able to pay all their bills. And we know that the financial stress on parents is the number one factor for kids' mental well-being.
Rebecca Murray 20:37
I want to jump in about that in this sense of definitely one thing that the Prevention Board has done, we are very privileged in our state that taxpayers provide money to our agencies so that we can fund community-based agencies so that within those communities across the state, we have the availability of family resource centers, other family support type of structures, that really, their job is to reduce those barriers that Linda talked about, right to make sure that there are some flexible funds to help out because we do know when families are overloaded economically, it can just cause other issues within for the parents or the children. And that sense of belonging has to happen at the parent level, for that primary caregiver to feel comfortable, included, that it's okay for them to ask for help, When we do that, in that adult role as the parent as the caregiver, our kids are watching us. And you know, we can set up structures for parents to meet each other and to get those social connections. But we also have to remember not everybody has those skill sets to actually know what that means. And so that is part of what we need to set up like within a Parent Cafe or other settings so that parents not only have the opportunity for maybe some of those organic relationships to grow, but their children are watching them. Learning how to make friends, is big work for little kids. And they're watching their parents do that. And it's so it's really important for us to break down some of those barriers that are within the system. So parents can do that, and allow their kids to see that happen.
Linda Hall 22:34
Well, I'd like to follow up on that if I can. This is so great that Rebecca talks about the focus that they have on families and the support that they have to families, it is a strength in our state. And, you know, kids being able to see their parents talk about feelings, make friends, are instrumental to their ability to develop those skills, which are also important for them to even be able to learn at school. So those are all really important. And what's so great about this is that Rebecca is talking about what the work that they support through the family resource centers, our office tends to be a little bit more focused on what's happening in school mental health programs. And there are a lot of really good things happening in Wisconsin. Right now, in terms of school mental health, it's a place you know, we know that 75% of kids who actually get treatment for mental health, which is less than half of all kids, they get it at school. And we've got a lot of really good programs happening at the school level. We're reaching kids, and we are increasingly seeing that youth are leading conversations about mental health at their school. We have over 300 schools right now that have a youth-led mental wellness program. So there are plenty of resources for us in Wisconsin to work on. And to continue to build, hopefully with sustainable funding.
Luke Waldo 24:07
Well, this was great. I appreciate the back and forth. This, the intention of these conversations is to engage in conversation. So thank you both for working off of one another. I did want to kind of revisit some of the what I would identify as kind of the underlying root causes of social isolation. That was my next question. You've in some ways already answered that. But I want to give you an opportunity to kind of revisit that in a second. But what I heard from you both around this question is that one, we have structural issues, which you talked about Linda right? So being socially connected is oftentimes dependent on one's ability to connect and if if one is overloaded with the stress of poverty, right, or has, as Rebecca pointed out in rural areas in particular, although certainly plays out here in Milwaukee as well, one has a difficulty obtaining reliable transportation, it becomes very difficult to connect with your community if you can't get there, right, if you can't reach your community. But I'm curious that it's clearly very complex, right? As, as Rebecca, you pointed out earlier, this is not a single answer. But if we were to try to be as concise as possible, what are those kind of underlying root causes, and the kind of complex relationship between things like the structural barriers such as poverty, right, where transportation, with the kind of practical implications that we see in the day to day lives of family, so I'll bounce it back to, to Linda to start, and then we'll, we'll move over to Rebecca.
Linda Hall 25:47
Well, you know, poverty gets in the way, in some of the things that you mentioned, in terms of transportation, getting to functions. I think it also gets in the way of parents feeling like they are valuable, and they belong. And we see that play out in school mental health, because parents are not always interested in supporting mental health treatment for their child at school, because they're, they had a bad experience at school. They're not trusting of that system. So, you know, and then and then, as Rebecca was saying, kids watch what their parents do, and how they how they manage the world. And they look for that. So I think that that that's a real issue. And maybe I'll just let Rebecca go, I'm sure she has something more to say about this.
Rebecca Murray 26:45
I don't know, I think Linda summed it up pretty well, I think that not only does poverty, you know, those barriers that Linda talked about, but time, then we have so many families in Wisconsin, that are working full time as Linda brought up, but don't have, you know, the extra resources to help with their kids doing things. But resources also is their time, if you were working two part-time jobs to get to a full-time job, being able to go to something at an after-school program might not fit into the shift work that you're doing, you might not be able to show up at your kid's basketball game, those type of events where sometimes those organic social connections do happen for families to find each other. But I do think that those systems can also impact some of our overloaded families in a different way. I also think one of the root causes is part of our social norm in our country about asking for help. We do think about parenting in a bubble, that you should be able to figure this out by yourself and do this on your own. And we really need to think about non-stigma ways of asking for help when it comes to raising kids. Because our children, really we're all connected, right? They're the next group of teachers, of doctors, of firefighters, right of all of those things. And we have to think collectively, that all of those kids that child development, their interactions, their positive experiences really do all impact our whole community.
Linda Hall 28:27
If I could follow up on that, you know, I think that we have in our office, we are really focused on what are the things we can do? How do we respond to this issue of social isolation? And so when I think about that, one of the, one of the key things is, as Rebecca has said, being able to ask for help is an issue. And in this country, we have a system of mental health that is very hard to get into. And, you know, for example, Mental Health America says what we need is a before stage four mental health system. We need kids to and families to be able to access support early on. And one of the supports they need to access that we don't have enough of is peer supports. So parent peer supports for parents who have kids who are developing symptoms, or they're struggling because that parenting role is a little bit more than they could manage. If we had more of that we're convinced that families would be stronger, and they would be better able to manage the various things that are going on. And that you know, there's a if there's time here I'd like to just mention a Wisconsin-based program that really addresses this kind of isolation and parent and lack of parent connectedness, the Families and Schools Together program, which is a program that was started by Doctor Lynn McDonald to help parents who were struggling with middle school kids, brought families together to experience time together to learn about each other, they practiced being a family, the kids would serve their parents dinner, that kind of a thing. But one of the important outcomes of this program was that these parents who felt very isolated at the beginning of the program, by the end of the program, they were going on to get, get their GED, get higher education degrees, which all led to, they're increasing their self-confidence, they're improving their careers and increasing their budgets. So just, you know, a really, I just think it's such a good example of how connection can make a difference in appearance life.
Rebecca Murray 30:56
I'm gonna bounce off of that from Linda too, because the FAST program is a phenomenal program that we are lucky enough to fund through the Prevention Board in a couple places, but also they've adapted. So now in our family resource centers, we're thinking about families that have kids before school, because we know how important it is for them to build those relationships. But then you also kind of have a cohort of parents that are going to start in a couple of years going through school. And you've thought about everything, part of it in that early adaptation is thinking about that brain development, right? So much of that brain development happens before kids even hit school. So what are parents doing in that reading, singing, talking to their kids every day, and then building this cohort of social connections? So it's a really phenomenal program, and they have taken it and adapted it to different age groups in the state. So it's, it's really, it's a great example that Linda brought up.
Luke Waldo 31:59
So I'm really glad that Rebecca, you started this conversation with this, this understanding that we culturally and societally really struggle with asking for help, as well as really kind of engaging with more of our natural communities, right, our, our neighborhoods, right, our school environments. In some ways, I tried to kind of reference that in the introduction, that, you know, what we're hearing from a lot of folks across the state is that kind of that sense of community or sense of belonging has really disintegrated over time, whether that's through the demands of some of our structures, as Linda's pointed out, right, the demands that you've both talked about, in the sense of working two jobs, right, or struggling to get from A to B because of, of lack of transportation, and so on. And then mentioning that some of the solutions are really focused on just being able to create space, right for, for those relationships and those connections to happen. Right. So I'm going to tell a real quick story. I know, I'm the one on the other side of the microphone for the interview here. But, I've talked a lot within the context of our initiative that really seeks to build these sort of collaborations, that if five to 10 years from now, all we're doing is adding more programs and services, I'll be disappointed. And here's why. Right? It's not that I don't value our programs and services, they're very, very important, and in many cases can help families overcome their their challenges. However, I do believe that families, what they really want is to be able to get back to their families. I think they want to get back to the friendships and the relationships that are truly supportive to them today, tomorrow and next month, right? And that they don't need to walk through the door of an organization, right to continue to get that support. So yeah, I think back to my my days at what is now Sojourner Family Peace Center, I coordinated a program called Child Witness to Domestic Violence, I felt it was a really powerful service that we provided to survivors of domestic violence, primarily mothers, with their children. Right. And to your point, it was really to help the family heal, but more importantly, to help mom model certain healthy behaviors for her children. And the curriculum itself was really powerful. I feel good about the work that we did. But the reason I bring this example up is that what I discovered was the most powerful portion of our programming was the 30 minutes of dinnertime. So initially, when I started with the program, we were providing pizza or you know fast foods of sorts, right to just quickly nourish the family and move them into curriculum. And what I learned primarily from my wife who values food and the breaking of bread, more than I did, at that time, was like, you know what, this is a time for families to really sit down and talk to one another, for mom who is stressed by all of the demands on her life, and what's happened to her recently, to be able to sit with her children and talk about their day, and to model certain behaviors that she wants to model for them. And not only that, it gave them an opportunity to connect with other moms and other families to start building kind of those connections that many of them had lost because of the abusive relationship they'd been in, right that they'd been isolated, in some cases very intentionally. And what I discovered through that process was that this is, this is potentially the most empowering and important part of the work that we're doing with families is giving them the space and the safety to rebuild connections that in many cases they'd lost. And so that is what I love hearing. So things like FAST, right, where we're creating environments for families to really be the people they want to be, the families that they want to be, and to be able to do so safely with others is, is super powerful. So I'm glad we've already started to just dive into that space. But before we get into fully into kind of the power of social connectedness and the good work that's happening across the state, and the potential good work that's happening across the state, I want to finish this kind of section on what is social isolation, the impacts on families, and just ask one last question around misconceptions. So when you think of social isolation, what do you believe is the biggest misconception about social isolation, social isolation that you see, in your work?
Linda Hall 36:57
I would say that people think that families and parents are choosing social isolation. And I don't think it's so it's so much a choice. It's the structures around them, it's some of the things we've talked about. And that, you know, it's the situation they get put into.
Rebecca Murray 37:19
Great answer, Linda, that was kind of top of my list, the other one is targeting or thinking that only certain types of families experience social isolation. And I don't think social isolation is specific to your economic status, your geographic location, really, because of some of our systems or structure issues, anyone can have that feeling of social isolation.
Linda Hall 37:42
You know, if I can add on to that, you know, I took a look yesterday at some of the information coming out of the Coalition to End Social Isolation for the elderly, and noted that they make a distinction between social isolation and loneliness. And social isolation is the objective, you know, it's the objective things that are happening that keep people from being connected to other people, whereas loneliness is, the more the subjective piece of it. And I think when I kind of translate that into the kinds of terms we think about with children's mental health, you know it to me, I see that we have a parallel when we think about the traumas that families have experienced, or kids have experienced that, you know, their social isolation, and poverty is an issue. But how kids respond to it is very individual and very subjective. And what what we may think is a small trauma may actually loom very large for a child and something that we need to deal with, or help them deal with help them get beyond.
Luke Waldo 38:55
Thank you both. So you've both done a beautiful job already transitioning us towards kind of the more hopeful vision for this really complex issue. And I do believe that people are inspired by a vision of promise, of hope. So if we are to create that movement that fights against social isolation, then I believe we must really aspire to social connectedness. So with that said, let's shift towards that vision of promise that you both have already kind of given us a sneak peek of and start with this first question of how does social connectedness empower families and reduce the risk of child neglect? And I'll kick it to you, Rebecca, for this question to start us off.
Rebecca Murray 39:43
Yeah, so for families, if they're feeling connected, they can be empowered, not only in building other social connections with families in the sense of feeling some just general relief sometimes that they're not the only one experiencing some of these things, right? So they might feel like oh, well, I'm not the only parent that maybe to some of Linda's examples, can't afford to have my kids do all these extracurricular activities, I might not be the only or I might not be the only parent experiencing tantrums. Still, with my four-year-old, I thought that was supposed to end when they were two. So there's some sense there of general awareness and connectedness that can happen. But also you can build some confidence with parents. And if they can build that trusting relationship. I'm going to speak specifically about the family support professionals, not just that peer to peer, but when they are connected to that family support professional, then they can access some other services and other type of needs. We talked about these systems and some of these barriers, there are resources available for many families. Again, if we could have universal family support across the state, that'd be a little bit different, I could answer that question differently. But when we can help parents build some awareness, some confidence, kind of break past that norm, that it's okay to ask for help. And the example I'm going to bring up is Parent Cafes. And I think we've kind of touched on it with FAST and Luke with your example. But really, the idea is having families come together, they break bread together, there's an activity for their kid, we build parent leaders at each of the tables to help kind of move that conversation with the parents. Because again, you can put a group of adults together, but it doesn't mean they're going to actually know how to have a conversation or build those connections, most of our Parent Cafes are built around the protective factors, or those parent leaders will decide on a topic, it might be I'm having, you know, I'm having challenges with IEPs at schools, or I'm having challenges on different things. So you might build a Parent Cafe around a different topic. But again, the key ingredients, breaking bread together, having some activity for the kids having that parent voice and those parent leaders there. And that is such, I think a low type of risk activity for families to come together. They're offered at a lot of childcare centers, which is a natural kind of drop off and pickup happens all the time. So we can get if there for a mom and a dad, both of them to attend. They're available in libraries at family resource centers, places where families already go. But that extra kind of enhancement is you can go there and then also meet some other parents along the way.
Linda Hall 42:46
Yeah, I think that's a great answer, Rebecca, what I would add to it is that, I think when we build parents self-confidence, they're more capable of being open to listening to what might what else might help, and to being open to mental health supports for their kids, we see that so many kids, you know, are are at school, they're asking for therapy, their parents are saying no. And it's because they're afraid they're going to be blamed for what's wrong. Or that there isn't, there is no solution. And once they see, you know, if they if their kids can be involved in some way in some kind of a support group, and they start to see their child feeling better, doing better, it kind of opens that door, and then I think eventually opens the door to the parent addressing the issues that they may have that might be getting in the way.
Luke Waldo 43:46
Yeah, I think both of you have hit on a point that, Linda, you had made early in the conversation about really kind of building trust, right, building trust between the family and the system. Right. So I think, Linda, you talked about how your parents oftentimes are resistant to school-based mental health because they had a bad experience with school or they just they mistrust the system. And you're talking about creating opportunities and spaces where that trust can be built, especially with systems that have maybe a poor track record in that area with overloaded families, I think is really important. And I you know, the, the one detail I had left out of our conversation is the first thing that we did when we were we were creating that kind of family dinner space was we invested in high quality foods, we brought in foods from some of our best restaurants in Milwaukee and showed the families that we valued them, right that their time to sit down with their kids was really important and that we needed to provide an incentive to do that, right that it wasn't just grab a piece of pizza and move on, right? And so there are opportunities, I think, as you've pointed out, Rebecca, in your response, to really kind of create this space that is welcoming, that helps break down certain barriers, and then allows for people to really start to open up to, to one another and to kind of the opportunity for connection. So thank you for, for sharing that. So. So I want to move into some of the examples that you've shared, particularly family resource centers, school-based mental health and other programs like FAST, right, that in many ways are about creating space for social connection, right, and, and building relationships that can, that can persist long after our programs are no longer needed for the family. So. So I want to, I want to kind of bring us back to the purpose of this season of the podcast, which is really about these critical pathways that will not only support overloaded families, but ideally empower them to achieve and sustain their family goals. So I'd like to finish our conversation today with questions that lead us to what has proven and promising, improving social connectedness for children and families. So let's start with a kind of a broad question of how might we strengthen families through the promotion of social connectedness and what maybe are some examples that you would share with our audience today?
Linda Hall 46:28
Well, I just have to say, when I when I think about strengthening families today, I keep coming back to this poverty issue. When we, when we address poverty, we address so much, families take care of themselves, it's like you said, they don't want to go through a door for a social service program, they just want to be whole. And we know what makes a difference. We have just had a national experiment and how to reduce child poverty. The extra funds that were given to families during the pandemic, were pulled 52 million kids out of poverty. And we know that what parents spent the money on was exactly what anyone would want them to spend it on. They spent it on rent, they spent it on food, exactly what we want them to do to support their family. So I just really, I really feel we cannot overlook the importance of just addressing this. And we have we know what the tool is, we need to use it.
Luke Waldo 47:32
I'm going to jump in real quick, Rebecca, before you respond. So as we'll hear on this podcast, another one of our critical pathways is economic stability. That's a no-brainer. as you just pointed out, Linda, the the evidence is very strong, that when families have economic stability, the risk of child neglect is reduced dramatically, as we saw in this most recent pandemic and the kind of social experiment that you've just mentioned. So I wanted to I just wanted to share that you I think have addressed one of our other very clear, critical pathways and really kind of the underlying root causes of child neglect in our country. All right, Rebecca, I'll pass it back over to you. Thank you.
Rebecca Murray 48:20
Linda hit it on the head. You know, when there is stability, financial stability, economic stability in a household, that stress on parents is so much lower, that most of the time, organic social connections happen for them, right, because when they are parenting, more than likely, right, their kids are at school, they're at childcare, their after school program. So there's, there's natural settings where they will connect with other parents. Now, because of the pandemic, also, because sometimes you don't have the time you are just Okay, we're done with practice, get in the car, let's go, you might not have that extra two minutes to talk to your neighbor next to you, right, that kid that's been in your kids class forever. So we do need to set up situations within communities, again, to make sure our community conditions allow for those social connections to happen. And, again, I talk about family resource centers, those can happen in libraries, they can happen at community centers, they can happen at schools in natural settings where parents or caregivers are going already. Because sometimes the organic social connections, parents just don't have the time right after pickup from school. They maybe they're just dropping their kids at home so they can get to their second job. So we have to think about you know when and how we can have those community conditions available. And part of that is making sure parents are there to let us know what are good timings. What are good topics? Luke, to your point about food, right? I don't want to just have a cold piece of pizza. And also, then you can bring in some different aspects and different communities, you bring in some different food, you're also maybe helping out a small business, you know, a locally owned restaurant can come and help out with that parent cafe. So, again, to Linda's point, 100%, if we could end poverty, it would solve a lot of problems. And even families who are not economically overloaded, there are there is the need for social connections across all families. Yeah,
Linda Hall 50:41
I'll just add that, you know, one of the issues around poverty is unstable housing. And we hear that so much from educators is that, you know, part of that kids are coming to school burdened with all kinds of issues. And one of them is, they're not sure where they're going to sleep at night, or they're, they've moved five times during this year. That's a direct poverty issue that we need to address. And then you were also asking about evidence-based programs, I think, in terms of what makes a difference, we know that peer support makes a difference. So parents are here support not only makes a difference, it helps people get to wellness faster. So that's an area where we could increase the positions available for parents, including paid positions for them to provide the kind of support that parents might need, you know, it's sometimes it's, it's a parent can use help, at the end of the school day, when they're trying to, you know, pick up kids get dinner on the table, that, you know, it can be a very chaotic time, and some help with that time of the day, strategies on how to deal with that kind of day, can just be so, so useful in terms of helping a family stabilize, and get to a calmer place by bedtime, so kids can actually sleep and be rested in the morning.
Rebecca Murray 52:11
You know, something that you've asked us about is really about solutions. And I think, you know, Linda's done a great job of talking about systems and barriers, it at some point, we as taxpayers really have to have a hard look at where we invest our dollars. And where is our investment going? Are we waiting for problems to happen? Could we do something ahead of time, every dollar we invest in children has such a return on investment. And children live in families. And we have to start thinking about how we are funding not just programs and big systems, but where is that investment going and really thinking about it as an investment in our future, and not just funding for, funding for you know, feeding kids right now, or, you know, different programs, it is a long term investment in our society to make sure that kids are safe, they have stable and nurturing relationships.
Luke Waldo 53:17
Thank you, Rebecca, you beat me to the question, right, which is, yeah, how do we take what we know works? Right? Both of you have talked about really the investment in, in children in families, in many cases directly, right? Let's put money in their pocketbooks, and give them the opportunity do that, you know, what, what, what all of us want to do, right, which is, as you pointed out, Linda is put a roof over our, our family's heads, right? Put high-quality food on the table, hopefully have some money to, you know, go to the movies or right, go to a game or do the things right, that bring joy into our lives. The question, I guess that I'm going to pose now is the million dollar question of, you know, how do we overcome some of the barriers that that you've mentioned, Rebecca, when it comes to what what we do with our, our state's dollars, our federal dollars? How do we achieve some of the objectives that you've mentioned that have proven to be effective?
Linda Hall 54:28
Well, I'm going to start by saying that Governor Evers proposed something like $280 million for mental health in his state budget, and it was largely rejected. What was actually passed by the legislature was $10 million for school mental health. That also is not sustainable. It's not guaranteed into the future. And in terms of school mental health, that's that has been the number one priority for that whole movement for many years now, is sustained interval funding, that allows us to put the people in place to create the connections that are important between kids, and between kids and mental health professionals when needed in the community. So the good thing is that with the pandemic, I think there is more recognition that mental health is an issue for everyone. And people have different levels of mental health. And I think people are increasingly understanding that we need to invest in our mental health in the same similar ways to how we invest in our physical health. It's something that we all have to pay attention to. And people are more open to talking about it. So I'm hopeful that as we continue to keep working on the message and bringing the data to people, that folks, including legislators, and other policymakers will see that this is really important. And it's something that needs to be done. We need to invest in our kids, as Rebecca has said.
Rebecca Murray 56:07
Yeah, I don't know that I have much to add to it. It is the question, Luke, I don't know as a society, what it is, that's going to take, again, the United States is the only developed nation without family medical leave. In the most critical time when a child is entering a family, right, whether through a birth or an adoption, we do not as a nation, provide support to families, universally, we we make that reliable on those parents and their business where they work. We think about all that brain development that's going on that ability to attach to your caregiver, right like that is the foundation of being able to make social connections and friends later on in life. It is such a critical time. Linda brought up the messaging, it really is about we have to think about different ways to talk about this isn't investment as the future and what it really the potential of what all of this brings. And it's not about helping certain families. But again, to some extent, I don't know, that is the million dollar question, Luke.
Luke Waldo 57:24
Yeah, I appreciate that. Rebecca, I didn't expect us to have the simple solution here. Because if that were the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation likely. But I appreciate the fact that you've elevated this idea of universal approaches, right. So in this case, universal medical leave, it makes me think a little bit about what Linda was talking about, and what is going to lead into this final question that I have for you both. That really is about what makes you optimistic about the future of this work and kind of advancing social connectedness across our communities. I think a bit about the mental health crisis, the youth mental health crisis that we're experiencing in this country, and globally, for that matter. But there's one theory that I have, I've been in this mental health space for a long time now. And a decade ago, there was a really heavy focus on the stigmatization of mental health. We were doing a lot of messaging around normalizing mental health, right, or, you know that mental health is a part of our health, right, that we need to stop separating it, or looking at it as something that people suffer from and should suffer in silence, in some ways, right. And in many ways, I believe that our mental health crisis, the fact that we have three to six to nine-month wait lists across the state when it comes to mental health care is partially due to the fact that people now look at mental health as something that they should take care of. Right that they need to treat. Now we've got to confront the new problem that comes with that which is serving families and individuals when they need mental health care. However, I do believe it's a sign of success, that our, our messaging, our work on destigmatization has actually been effective. Now, some people might argue with that, but that's that that's one of my theories as to how we've gotten here. I bring that up to say that we have now shifted a lot of our focus on the impacts of social isolation on our mental health. Right, and that, in many ways, our mental health care should also involve community building, and social connectedness and essentially treatment that is not in a clinical setting, right that we need to care for ourselves long before it or it rises to the level of a mental health crisis that needs immediate clinical intervention. All right. So in many ways, it's about changing hearts and minds. Right? To your point, Rebecca, about, yeah, we as taxpayers really need to, to look in the mirror and ask ourselves where we want to be investing. And if we believe that families will be well, that children will be well, if they are socially connected, and that social connectedness, in many ways is dependent on one's ability to take care of their bills, to have time, for family, for leisure, for relationships, then we should start to really message that wholeheartedly so that our policies and practices are reflected in that kind of messaging, right? Or that that that we are manifesting change based on that messaging. So I just wanted to kind of frame that up, based on what I've heard from both of you and the work that that we've been doing here at the Institute, I'm hopeful that we are starting to have these conversations that really look at how investments in families, direct investments, and families, especially early on in their lives, aren't, those investments aren't only good for them. They're good for all of us. So with that, I'll turn to you both to wrap our conversation with this question of what makes you optimistic about the future of this work?
Linda Hall 1:01:28
Well, Luke, I'll just say, you know, in response, to summarize what you've said, just now, the focus of our action agenda is really around how do we help families connect better? How do we support them? We also are looking at supportive adults. So we're looking at supportive adults, especially in school. So connecting adults and youth together to create those positive connections. And we're looking at community, and how do we increase opportunities for youth and communities to have extracurricular activities or to have ways that they feel like they belong. So in addition to school mental health, which I really see as a place where we can bring students together in their primary culture during their day, to address their personal feelings, and to learn positive norms, how to connect with others, how to build trusting relationships, those are the things that we're focusing on that I think get us, you know, further upstream. And, you know, one of the things that we have learned recently is that trusted peer relationships, especially for teens, that those trusted relationships, quality peer relationships, make a bigger difference, not only in a teen's life, but the quality, the benefits of it last long into adulthood, and in some ways, even longer than the, the relationship between them and their parents. So, you know, working with kids on how to, you know, build on the skills their parents gave them about making relationships, and, you know, having trusting relationships, building on those skills, it brings us to a point where we can have more kids addressing mental health through these other mechanisms. I also think that, you talked about the demand on the system, because there is more openness to talking about mental health, I think we see that, especially at the young adult level and on college campuses, where the demand for services far exceeds what colleges are able to provide. And it's because students are more open to talking about it, the anxiety levels are high, but they're also you know, looking for support with those issues. So we're increasing that and we're we are going to increasingly focus on youth voice and their solutions to the problems that we have right now with mental health, because they are experiencing a world that none of us as adults went through. And they are telling us that, you know, it's the things that are on their mind are the increased pressure to around academics, climate change, gun violence, and political divisiveness are weighing on them. And so we need to, you know, really help them through that, but listen to them on what is going to work for them.
Rebecca Murray 1:04:43
And to your question, Luke, but what brings me some optimism in the work that we're doing? Part of it is, is collaborations like this. Whenever Linda and I are able to get together and think about how can we work together? Not duplicate efforts, right? How do we help, you know so many more when we are partnering in this work together in I was recently at one of our FRCs and thinking about who they brought to the table to talk about their partnerships, right? So they had their health care system there that is starting to do social drivers of health screening, so that if transportation and housing are barriers, how can we get them connected? We had pediatricians there that are talking about reading to your kids, right in a well baby visit, really thinking about that holistic approach, that we need the medical community, we need the schools there. We need the childcare centers there, we need the food pantry there to really think about we're all in this together to make sure that our community has what it needs, so that our kids can grow up in strong and stable families.
Linda Hall 1:05:52
Well, I just have to follow up on that collaboration piece, you know, when we started to look at this, this focus on social connectedness of youth, and we started talking to other people about it to see, you know, people in our network, well beyond our network, how does this resonate, we kept getting the same message back that everybody is looking at this as a priority. So I think as we all pick this up as a priority, it increases the opportunities for us to work together, and really make some achievements that haven't been available in the past.
Luke Waldo 1:06:27
Well, what a beautiful way to end right that we were talking about social connectedness and the importance of, you know, the partnerships across our organizations, and our government agencies and so on, is just as important in supporting those connections. So. So with that, I have one final kind of fun question to offer our audience, which is what what kind of shapes your thinking, or what author or book have you read that has shaped or represents your thinking around your work? So whoever wants to take that first?
Rebecca Murray 1:07:06
I have to say this was one of the hardest questions. So I would say two of the most recent books that I read, because maybe they're the most recent one is called The Parent Trap, how to stop overloading parents and fix the inequalities. And that is from Nate Hilger. And then also Matthew Desmond, his new book on Poverty in America.
Linda Hall 1:07:32
Okay, I thought this was a hard question too, because I don't read many books. I do so much research reading all day long. I like I can't think about reading a hard book at night. So I'm gonna reach back and give you a book that was written in the 70s, that I still think about on a regular basis. It's called Bread and Spirit: therapy with the new poor, by Harry Aponte. And I had the opportunity to meet Harry and learn from him in person. But the book is, in the book, he tells wonderful stories about working with parents, who are really burdened by poverty, and how those structures around them keep them trapped that way, and how many times when a family would be referred to him by a school, and he would tell the school, I won't work with this family unless you are at the table, helping to address what's happening structurally at school, because he really found that a lot of parents were being by this, the social structures around them that were crumbling, parents were being denied their power as a parent. And he really needed to work with them on rebuilding their position as being the parent and the family, and providing the positive support that kids need. So I just think it's a great book. It's old, but it's still wonderful.
Luke Waldo 1:09:00
Well see, that's exactly why I asked this question, Linda, this very hard question is that we get to discover potentially new thinkers, new authors, new books. And that's, that's a new one to me. And I'm excited to check it out and appreciate you kind of sharing the kind of foundational thinking that clearly has had some influence on your career and how you think, think about this work and think about families. I can't express enough gratitude to both this conversation has been very enlightening. And for me, it's been very, very uplifting and promising on a topic that is really complex, and at times very overwhelming. But I've heard from both of you, a lot of optimism, and a lot of real momentum that I think is happening here across our state of Wisconsin. So thank you both above all else, as you've mentioned, thank you for your partnership. We learned so much from you. And I really look forward to collaboration well beyond our conversation today.
Luke Waldo 1:10:19
II hope that today’s episode and insights from Linda Hall and Rebecca Murray have you thinking more about how we might confront the epidemic of social isolation for overloaded families by strengthening social connectedness. Before we go, I wanted to highlight three key takeaways to reflect on as we move into our next episodes.
Thank you for joining us for today’s conversation. We hope that you will come back and listen next week as we continue to explore the Critical Pathways that lead to child and family well-being and reduce family separations for reasons of neglect.
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To learn more about the experts that you heard today, visit the Show Notes, which is where you will also find links to sources or information that were mentioned in today’s episode.
Thank you again for joining us. See you next week.
This podcast would not have been possible without the support and talents of Carrie Wade, who is responsible for our technical production and original music composition. I can't express my gratitude enough to Carrie for all she has given to this project. I'm also grateful to my team at the Institute for Child and Family Well-being at Children’s Wisconsin, who drive the Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and contributed to the ideas behind this podcast. Finally, I would like to thank all of our speakers that you have heard today and throughout the podcast for their partnership, their willingness to share their stories and expertise with me and all of you and their commitment to improving the lives of children and families. I'm Luke Waldo, your Host and Executive Editor. Thanks again for listening and see you next time.