In episode 2 of this season with Liz Weaver and Mark Cabaj, they centered the people closest to the problems that we are trying to solve. Liz talked about how their community change efforts driven by Collective Impact frameworks require that there is a balance of participants at the table, meaning that there are as many people with lived experience as professionals and government officials. Mark summoned the Polish constitution from centuries ago that brought us the words that have become synonymous with community voice – “Nothing about us, without us.” Over the past many years, we have seen a movement within our family serving systems – from substance abuse to mental health to child welfare – to include those impacted most by those systems in the planning and decision-making processes. Organizations like Think of Us have been founded by and for people that have been impacted by the child welfare system. In Wisconsin, Bregetta Wilson, our guest from season 1, leads a team of Parent Leaders at our Department for Children and Families that has advised changes to our state’s child welfare policies and procedures. At Children’s Wisconsin, we have a Parent Advocate, Esmeralda Martinez, who we will be talking with today about her own lived experience that led to the child welfare system, and how that experience informs her role and the support she provides to parents that are living a similar experience to her own. So how might we support and advance these movements to meet the promise of “Nothing about us, without us”? How might we learn from those with lived experience about what overloads families in the first place, so that we might support them before child welfare and family separation is needed? How might we create the power balance that Liz Weaver talked about where those with lived experience have the influence to make meaningful changes to the decisions and systems that impact them the most? And lastly, how might we support our lived experience partners so that we don’t overload them or cause harm? I invited Esmeralda Martinez to answer these questions today through her experience and expertise.
Host: Luke Waldo
Experts:
:00-:17 – Esmeralda Martinez - “So those closest to the problem are those who are best suited to help fix it.”
:30-4:32– Luke Waldo – Opening
4:33-5:12 - Luke - Welcome, Esme. What happened in your life that led to child welfare becoming involved in your family’s life? How did the different challenges that you were facing begin to overload you with stress?
5:13-6:36 – Esmeralda Martinez – Esme was struggling with addiction and homelessness when she was pregnant with her second child. She didn’t want to raise this child in the condition that she was in, so she left the baby at the hospital. Child welfare took custody of the child and placed her with Esme’s sister.
6:37-7:08 - Luke – Can you share what was happening in your life that led to the abusive relationship, homelessness and financial challenges that would have made it hard for you to raise your second child?
7:09-9:30 – Esme – Childhood trauma and access to alcohol at an early age. Struggled with alcoholism in her teens with moments of sobriety. She struggled with finances as a young mother, so she decided to go back to school. She met a man who at first was really good for her and her son. But over time, he became controlling and then physically abusive to a point where she ended up in the emergency room.
9:31-11:34 - Luke – What do you feel was missing that led to your coping through alcohol? What changed that led to your moments of sobriety and pursuit of education?
11:35-15:39 - Esme – Education about what can lead to abusive relationships was missing from her youth. Her mother worked three jobs. Her family struggled with poverty, so she didn’t always have her around to support or educate her. High school students should receive education on healthy relationships and what to do if abuse does occur. People with lived experience could be powerful teachers of healthy relationship curriculum. Addiction and alcoholism was part of her family history, so she may have been predisposed. Esme’s parents took her son when she was struggling with alcohol, and they made an ultimatum that if she didn’t get sober that they would take legal steps to address her parental rights. She wished she had gotten into treatment earlier, but she wasn’t aware of them. She leaned on her faith until her daughter was removed from her care by the child welfare system. A charter school took a chance on her, which allowed her to see what healthy living looked like. It inspired her to make changes in her life.
15:40-17:07 - Luke – We often underappreciate the impact of a single person or institution on one’s motivation to overcome challenges. The school clearly helped you find your motivation. What was your experience with the child welfare system?
17:08-22:09 – Esme – For the first months after she left her daughter in the hospital, she was homeless and struggling with addiction, so she didn’t receive any documents or information as she didn’t have an address. She wanted help, but didn’t know how to get it or what the first step was. She didn’t know where to turn or that there was a process from detox to treatment and so on. After being in survival mode for so long, she was so tired. Then, a woman that she had gotten close with on the streets had disappeared for awhile, and showed back up to let her know that she had gotten treatment. This was her moment of inspiration. She contacted her sister to let her know that she was going to seek treatment. The screening and intake process was challenging as she didn’t have a working phone, so if there weren’t beds available she would need to call back every day.
22:10-22:18 – Luke - Esme, can you share more about your recovery journey and what it was like to navigate the Substance Abuse and Child Welfare systems at the same time?
22:19-29:12 – Esme - After a couple weeks, she was able to get in. But then there wasn’t a residential placement available, so she was going to be released. She knew that she couldn’t go back to the streets, so she asked her parents to come up to support her until she was able to get a residential placement. There was one worker who worked so hard for her until she got a placement at Meta House. She was then able to get five months of residential treatment, which is beyond the norm. In the midst of this, she was able to connect with her child welfare case manager and begin visits with her daughter. There had been some turnover with the case manager, which can be difficult for families.
29:13-32:32 - Luke – There are tensions in our systems – the time addiction recovery takes versus the short period of time a parent has to recover so that they can be reunified with their child – and the real challenges that overloaded families face that make it even more difficult to overcome these tensions. How did your experience with child welfare inform your work in your current role?
32:33-34:48 - Esme – The impact of peer support specialists in her treatment and recovery was so important, particularly the inspiration of seeing how far they had come. Knowing how hard this is is invaluable in giving encouragement. She does relive some of her darkest moments, but she works for an organization that takes care of her.
34:49-35:58 - Luke – What does the Parent Advocate role look like?
35:59-37:40 - Esme – A direct support for biological parents who are going through the child welfare system. Sometimes a listening ear, transportation to appointments, a mediator between a parent and case manager, a support during visits.
37:41-38:18 - Luke – What do parents tell you is the greatest value of your role?
38:19-39:11 - Esme – That doesn’t happen as you might imagine, but she realizes that she didn’t see the value necessarily in the moment when she was working with peer support either. But the exchange of information and encouragement is really important.
39:12-40:18 – Luke – How have you seen the Parent Advocate role serve as a bridge between the case manager and the parent?
40:19-41:08- Esme – The parent may be more willing to connect with her and receive the information because they know that Esme’s been through this. She works through documents and information in a way that takes some of the emotion out of the process, and it helps them understand that it’s not personal, but rather the case manager’s job.
41:09-42:19 - Luke – Is there a credibility or trust-building that happens because you have been through the system in a way that a case manager hasn’t?
42:20-43:43- Esme – Indeed. She doesn’t have to be professional in the way that case managers have to be. Maintaining professionalism when we are in somebody’s life the way that we are is very difficult.
43:44-49:38 - Luke – It is important to explore this concept of professionalism within human services and child welfare. There is so much lived experience within our field, and yet there has been this expectation that we create strong boundaries to button it up. How might we find the balance so that one’s lived experience can help build trust with those that are in the system now? How do we support people with lived experience so that you can do your job well and for a long time?
49:39-52:18 - Esme – She feels supported by Children’s as she has the best supervisor that she’s ever had. It would be great to have another Parent Advocate to have weekly check-ins so that she could consult with them on what they are experiencing. More funding would be helpful to provide incentives to the parents that she works with to engage them.
52:19-53:50 – Luke – How do you overcome the tension of being part of the organization that is partially responsible for their family separation?
53:51-55:12 - Esme – Her role allows her to maintain confidentiality with parents. She works hard to build trust through that.
55:13-57:11 – Luke – How have you been involved in the decision-making process? Do you feel like your perspective is changing how we think about our work?
57:12-59:33 - Esme – Partner programs such as Family Support have consulted with her. She has been involved in many focus groups exploring opportunities for systems change. Garbage can example.
59:34-1:02:00 - Luke – References Mark Cabaj, Liz Weaver and episode 2 in response to Esme’s statement of “So those closest to the problem are those who are best suited to help fix it.”
1:02:01-1:03:56 - Esme – The support that this role has received from our organization and system. Systems change takes a long time. The sincerity in the people that are leading systems change efforts. Seeing the acknowledgement of the humanity of people in the system.
1:03:57-1:05:09 - Luke - Closing and Gratitude
1:05:10-1:05:26 – Esme – Thank you
1:05:27-1:07:25 - 3 Key Takeaways
1:07:26-1:08:56 - Luke – Closing Credits
Join the conversation and connect with us!
SPEAKERS
Esmeralda Martinez, Luke Waldo
Esmeralda Martinez 00:07
So those closest to the problem are those who are best suited to help fix it.
Luke Waldo 00:30
Welcome to season 2 of Overloaded: Understanding Neglect, where we explore the Critical Pathways that lead to child and family well-being and reduce family separations for reasons of neglect. Hey everyone, this is Luke Waldo, your host for this podcast series and the Director of Program Design and Community Engagement for the Institute for Child and Family Well-being, our partnership between Children’s Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee’s Helen Bader School of Social Welfare.
Luke Waldo 01:14
In episode 2 of this season with Liz Weaver and Mark Cabaj, they centered the people closest to the problems that we are trying to solve. Liz talked about how their community change efforts driven by Collective Impact frameworks require that there is a balance of participants at the table, meaning that there are as many people with lived experience as professionals and government officials. Mark summoned the Polish constitution from centuries ago that brought us the words that have become synonymous with community voice – “Nothing about us, without us.”
Over the past many years, we have seen a movement within our family serving systems – from substance abuse to mental health to child welfare – to include those impacted most by those systems in the planning and decision-making processes. Organizations like Think of Us have been founded by and for people that have been impacted by the child welfare system. In Wisconsin, Bregetta Wilson, our guest from season 1, leads a team of Parent Leaders at our Department for Children and Families that has advised changes to our state’s child welfare policies and procedures. At Children’s Wisconsin, we have a Parent Advocate, Esmeralda Martinez, who we will be talking with today about her own lived experience that led to the child welfare system, and how that experience informs her role and the support she provides to parents that are living a similar experience to her own.
So how might we support and advance these movements to meet the promise of “Nothing about us, without us”? How might we learn from those with lived experience about what overloads families in the first place, so that we might support them before child welfare and family separation is needed? How might we create the power balance that Liz Weaver talked about where those with lived experience have the influence to make meaningful changes to the decisions and systems that impact them the most? And lastly, how might we support our lived experience partners so that we don’t overload them or cause harm?
I invited Esmeralda Martinez to answer these questions today through her experience and expertise.
Esmeralda Martinez is a lived experience professional and the Parent Advocate for Children’s WI child welfare ongoing services. Esme is the mother of a toddler and a teenager and is working on a degree in Psychology with a minor in Counseling. She was a victim of childhood trauma, survivor of domestic violence and trafficking, and has had personal child welfare involvement. Today, she is living a healthy, sober life. Esme serves as a Parent Leader in Child Welfare with the Department for Children and Families. She is also part of the design team for Breaking Barriers, Rightsizing Congregate Care and has been a valued contributor to our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative.
I would like to thank Esme for joining me today, sharing her experience with us, and for her partnership over this past year.
In our conversation today, we talk about addiction and domestic violence.
If you or someone you know is struggling with substance abuse, you can get help by calling SAMHSA’s National Helpline at 1-800-662-HELP (4357).
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233
Now, on to the episode.
Luke Waldo 04:33
So I'd like to start our conversation today Esme with how this journey of yours began. And that unfortunately began with child welfare involvement. But quite frankly, it started long before that. And so I'd like you to share what was happening in your life over that period that led to the child welfare system becoming involved In your life and your family's life, and more specifically, how the different challenges that you are facing really began to overload you with stress.
Esmeralda Martinez 05:13
Well, like you said, started long before child welfare involvement, but the things that were the things that immediately led to child welfare becoming involved were, well, let me talk about how it happened. So I had given birth to my second child, my daughter, and I was in the hospital with her. And at that point, I was being given the opportunity to keep her and I couldn't, I knew I couldn't, I wasn't in a place where I could care for two children not with, I wasn't going to be able to provide financially I didn't want to be that parent of two children with two different fathers. We I was homeless at the time. In addition, I was a victim of domestic violence for two years prior. So I made the decision that I felt was best probably more for myself than for my daughter at the time. And the first opportunity I got when nobody was looking, I left her at the hospital. Because I didn't take the appropriate steps. For her to be cared for by somebody else. That's when CPS got involved. I couldn't, I knew I couldn't, I wasn't in a place where I could care for two children not with, I wasn't gonna be able to provide financially I didn't want to be that parent of two children with two different fathers. We I was homeless at the time. In addition, I was a victim of domestic violence for two years prior. So I made the decision that I felt was best probably more for myself than for my daughter at the time. And first opportunity I got when nobody was looking, I left her at the hospital. Because I didn't take the appropriate steps for her to be cared for by somebody else. That's when CPS got involved.
Luke Waldo 06:37
Esme, do you mind sharing a little bit about what was happening that kind of led to the relationship, the abusive relationship that you mentioned, for the two years leading up to the birth of your second child? What were what were the things that were happening in your life that led to not only that relationship, but the homelessness and the kind of financial challenges that you mentioned, that would have made it really difficult to raise your second child?
Esmeralda Martinez 07:09
I was given alcohol at an early age. And that was something that something that I continued to use to cope. As I got older. I will probably have been diagnosed as an alcoholic at 18. There were moments of sobriety, I had not gone to treatment, but had been living a sober life. Here in Milwaukee for about three or four years. I was going to work, I worked full-time at a school. And it was just myself and my first child, my son. It felt like no matter how hard I tried, ends were being met, there were definitely bills that were being ignored. But again, I thought I was doing the best that I could. I decided to go back to school, because I felt like that was going to be our only way out is for me to increase my earning potential. Let's obtain it by obtaining a degree. And I met a man who initially was a very good thing for the both of us didn't start the relationship didn't start. I mean, he didn't come out and was like, you know, controlling it. You know, it progressively gets worse. And I would say the first thing that should have been a red flag for me was the jealousy when I would come home from work, get ready and go to class. It was very controlling. I'm going to drop you off. I'm going to pick you up. I want to know who you're in class with. If eventually I stopped going, then the communication, the language, the way that I was being spoken to got worse, after that, you know, push turned into a shove, turned into a slap turned into four different trips to the emergency room.
Luke Waldo 9:31
Thank you, Esme, for sharing that I know that kind of going back into these very difficult and very dark moments can be really hard. And so I appreciate you and your courage for for sharing with me and with our audience where they can better understand your journey, because we're gonna get into who Esme is today, the person, the mother, and the advocate that you've become. And so understanding kind of your past, I think is really important to be able to appreciate the journey and who you are today. So with that, there are a couple of things that you had said that I would like to explore for a moment. One You had mentioned, with your struggles with alcoholism, that you had moments of sobriety, you also talked about how in the midst of not only your struggles with, with alcoholism, but also the the daily challenge of this progressively abusive relationship that you went back to school, right that you saw a path forward for not only yourself, but for your son. And I'm curious, first, so two part question first, what what do you feel like was initially missing in your life that led to kind of the coping through alcohol, or the coping through other behaviors that that ultimately weren't good for you? So it's the first question what was missing? And then the second now and let you kind of build into this? What changed for you within you that led to those moments of sobriety? What changed within you or around you, that led to you seeking out opportunities like going back to school so that you could provide for yourself and for your for your child?
Esmeralda Martinez 11:35
That's actually a really good question. I was hoping that I would be able to get that in and not forget later in. But no, that's great education, education, in what are red flags, what kind of things to look for that lead to abusive relationships, I feel like emotional regulation, those kinds of things should be part of a curriculum that it's taught in our schools, I feel like those are all things that we didn't get at home, and we were poor growing up, my mom did work three jobs, she, you know, she had time to make us dinner and make sure we got to school that was doing a lot she didn't, you know, there was no time to, to explain to us, you know, how to appropriately deal with our anger or, you know, how to express the kinds of emotions that we were dealing with internally and, and the healthy way to handle those. Also, I believe there's a genetic component into alcoholism and we come from I come from a line of alcoholics. Unfortunate, unfortunately. So that's the first, that was the first question. Yeah, we need, we need to teach, I believe high school students what healthy relationships look like, and also what to do, in case you find yourself in an unhealthy relationship. I think a lived experience to do those kinds of maybe presentations or part of the curriculum would be really powerful, you know, to, to kind of I want to say model, but you know, give an example of, you know, how bad things can get and kind of unknowingly unforeseen like you don't see these things coming. Without system involvement. My parents, I was very young and naive. My parents took my son and kind of gave me an ultimatum. Like if you don't get it together that you know, we will keep him we will take this to court this will be you know, a legal agreement issue. And that's when I knew I had to get sober How did I get sober I wish I would have gone to treatment I wish I would have gotten also education and what addiction looks like and become equipped with the tools necessary. The you know, coping skills rules to live by when it's you know, when you do struggle with the disease of addiction and alcoholism, those were things that I never learned, I come from a family of faith. And that's what I clung to. For those moments of sobriety wasn't till after I had my daughter, the 10 years later in system involvement to happen, that I, that's when I decided to go to treatment, and I got education, and all of those things, which helped incredibly couldn't have been a better thing for me. But in addition to that, after not being in recovery, but maintaining sobriety, I was given a chance. There was a school, it was a charter school that took a chance on me, you know, despite what, you know, why resume looks like they interviewed me and we're like, you know, what, we see potential in our, we're gonna give her a chance. And that's all I needed was that one chance. That experience led to me, seeing what healthy lives look like seeing what being able to obtain and maintain a career and what that does, and how your life can be built around something solid like that. It was the healthy lives of the people around me that I was witnessing, when, when that school decided to take a chance on me.
Luke Waldo 15:40
Thank you for sharing that that last part. In particular, I think we often times under appreciate the impact of a single person or a single institution, right, you talking about the school kind of taking a chance on you. Right? But that that, that influence that support, alone, and we've heard that quite a bit in this season of the podcast, that that alone can often times provide the inspiration, right, provide the motivation and or provide most importantly, the support and guidance towards kind of the better, better version of ourselves. Right. And so I appreciate you, you sharing, sharing that example. So I want to for a second here, because we're going to transition in a moment into your role here at Children's Wisconsin. But before we do that, can you share a bit about your experience with the child welfare system itself? And what you found particularly challenging, right? Because that will be our transition into why your role is is so important now, right? So if you can just share a little bit about what what the child welfare system looked like for you, what you what you struggled with, what you found particularly helpful, and then we'll get into how that's informed you in your role currently?
Esmeralda Martinez 17:08
That's a great question. So yeah, I left my daughter at the hospital. At that time, my son was living with my parents in Illinois. My sister decided to intervene, and she took placement of my daughter. So and that was something again, that was something I had known I was homeless. I don't know where the documents were getting mailed to. I had no idea what was going on with that situation. But I think it's also I feel the need just to add, I was I was still coping with alcohol, I had nowhere to go home. And it wasn't just alcohol, like that led to uglier and different substances. I continued on that path for about four months. This is what's crazy, I wanted, I wanted help. I didn't know where to go. I want to say that it's because I not from Milwaukee. I'm not from Wisconsin, I'm from Illinois. I think at that time, I had maybe lived in Wisconsin for about four years. So resources or where to find them or where to go was definitely something that I was completely unaware of. I did not know what I didn't know what was the first step I need to take. I didn't know that you know you first you need detox this is what you need first, then you need treatment after that. Then you know then comes all the other like reestablishing of the you know the foundations of your life, then the job and then, you know, school, home cars, things like that. So these are all things that I wanted. I didn't I didn't know where to turn And finally, after three or four months, I was just I was tired. I was tired of it, I couldn't do it anymore every day was it was a struggle every single day with the rising of the sun came like survival, just survival mode. There was another, I would say, there's another woman, a girl that I would associate with in that, in that time of my life. And she had gone missing for a while, which is always concerning. And then when I saw her again, you know, in conversation, I asked, What happened were, you know, where have you been, and she shared with me that she had gone to detox, and she was in treatment, but that she left, and I remember how encouraging that was, almost, there was a little bit of envy. And her response to that actually was, you can do it too. And that's all I needed to hear. I think shortly after I got in touch with my sister, and I let her know, you know, I don't I don't know what the plans are with my daughter. But this is my plan, just so that you know that I you know, I will be working on reunification with her. Of course, I didn't know that terminology at the time. So I'm sure I used something else. And the young lady that gave me that little bit that one sentence that you could do it to told me the name of the place. And she said go to Rogers. And I don't even think I had a regular cell phone at the time. So probably with a borrowed cell phone I just called I called and asked and the representative who answered the phone, you know, shared what the process looked like with me and I went through that process. Initially, it was discouraging, because it was a unique to call go through this screening. And then if we have a bed available, then you can come on in. If there's not a bed available, and you don't call back, I think it was within 24 hours, then you had to do the process all over again. Then you you went through the screening and it wasn't like anything terrible. But for somebody that for somebody that needs help. Sitting through that 45 minute interview asking these very invasive questions is very personal questions. It was hard and like I said, I didn't have a working phones. So for you to say you have to call back tomorrow. Just meant like, okay, let's work this out again tomorrow. I think I might have went on two more weeks. And then the opportunity presented itself and I found my way there.
Luke Waldo 22:10
Esme, can you share more about your recovery journey and what it was like to navigate the Substance Abuse and Child Welfare systems at the same time?
Esmeralda Martinez 22:19
I went to Rogers, I did a six day stay at detox. This is a got complicated after that also. So after the six days, they I was going to be released, there wasn't a bed available for me at any residential treatment facility. And I was going to be I was just gonna be like, released into the community. I say that that that's probably, but that's what it felt like it felt like wait, no, you can't. Are you just gonna let me walk out of here? Like no, I'm not. I knew I wasn't ready for that. Fortunately, I knew enough to reach out to family out of state. My parents were in Illinois. So it wasn't that far I say out of state but they weren't that far. And my parents were actually willing to come and get me. And they stayed with me for a couple of days to wait for a bed to become available. And then that's exactly what it took was two days and two days of calling in the morning calling in the afternoon calling at night. Is there a bed available? Is there a bed available? There was one worker I know my mom remembers her name. And she was she worked for impact. And this lady was so incredibly amazing and helpful. She wasn't going to stop until she found me a bed and made a house. There was a bed available at Meta House. I was hesitant, but I knew I knew why I was hesitant I was going through so many changes there was you know the behavioral changes that had to happen. The you know the physical symptoms of what I was going through The stress of the things that I knew I needed to take care of that you feel like are high priority. And they are very important, but until you until you until you fix until you address the underlying issues like you can't, you can't build on the necessary things for life. So I was more like, I need to get a job, I gotta start doing these visits with my daughter, I need to get a place and a car. And I've ever been told no, so many times, no, you need to be here. No, you need to be here. I was. So I'm not gonna say lucky, I was so blessed. So state insurance will pay for minimum, or net minimum. I don't know what a minimum is. But 30 days is usually where you they give you your first evaluation, to see if you need more treatment or not. And then they you know, with reports from your therapists and other staff at the residential facility, then that's how they determine whether or not they'll fund another 30 days. So that happened, they funded 60 days for me. And then when it came time again, I had heard from people do not tell them that you're ready, because they will let you know, they will say that no, she's ready and not and not help you, you will have to go and figure this out then. And after two months, after 60 days, everything in me wanted to be ready. Everything in me was like yes, let me go. But there was also like a still small voice that was like, No, this isn't enough. If the opportunity is there, take it. Plus, I had nowhere to go. I had where were they going to let me go to a I had nowhere to go. So after that 60 days, it happened again, that was reassessed. I let them know that I was not ready. They gave me 90 days, which is rare. Then after the 90 day assessment to see if I was eligible for more treatment. I had done so good. And they were you know, glad that I accepted and received the treatment received the treatment when a lot of people were like No, I'm done. Get me out of here. I was chosen for a pilot at Meta House had a private pay house in Shorewood. And there was no private pay clients. So they I was actually the first Yes. They said as well. Do you want to do this pilot with us? We're going to try state insurance paid clients. I don't know if that's the right term. But people who are not private pay, were going to try at the Shorewood house and open up some more beds and I said absolutely. So then this presented opportunity for another 60 days of treatment. So all in all, I got five months of residential treatment, which is unheard of absolutely unheard of. And I can't imagine how difficult it is for the clients who for the patients who don't who don't get that opportunity. I don't know how long my sobriety would have how long I would have lasted had I only gotten those 60 days, had I only gotten 90 days. I I firmly believe that that is why I've been able to maintain for so long, I believe that's why I was like really strong really grounded in my recovery and the changes that had to happen for me to be able to maintain. I feel like I skipped a whole part in all of this. So I had been at Meta House, maybe 30 days and I was eager to get things going, I reached out to my sister to ask for the information about my case manager and I reached out to my case manager. The first 90 days before I went to the shore would house visits had been established. They were bringing her there for visits to happen. Also, in those 90 days, I had two different case managers. I know the case had only been in for five months, because that's how old my daughter was. Six, she was six months. So in six months, there was at least that had been two case managers. I think that makes it challenging for parents. It would have made it challenging for me had I not been so determined to get this done. I'm so determined to not let anything interfere or stop or slow down my process. But I can I'm thinking I tried to put myself in parents' shoes, how hard would that have been for somebody who's not as determined for somebody who's not as strong willed for somebody who doesn't have the support of a family? Yeah, that so that was that was one thing that was one notable thing in my case, early on.
Luke Waldo 29:13
I think that's a good place to break, you've, you've shared a lot, a lot there. And a couple of things I just want to share back, because I think they're really important for the audience to hear again. And it is also something that we've heard from other guests, I think of Jermaine Reed, whose episode came out a few weeks ago, and he talks about how our system right is set up, where in particular, those that are struggling with addiction, have, or our federal statutes 15 months to turn their lives around completely. If they want to be reunified with their child, right. And you've just talked about, Esme, you were incredibly fortunate, and an outlier to have received five months of residential treatment, right, which is not, as you said, it's not a norm. And you knew that after two months, or even three months, that you are still not ready, right. And so we have these, we have these, these tensions that are built into our systems, right, where it's like, you may have come into the child welfare system, because you are struggling with addiction. Our, our, our substance abuse recovery programs are designed in a way right one that require as you mentioned, and understanding of insurance, right, that require the persistence that oftentimes people just don't have when they're in the middle of addiction, and crises, homelessness in your case, right to be able to call back every day, right to continue to go through the same screening, if there's not a bad, right, there are all of these tensions that exist within these systems. That is part of the reason why we're doing this podcast, part of the reason why we're doing this, this initiative is we really need these systems to start to understand where those tensions lie and and find solutions, because we cannot continue to ask our most overloaded individuals or most overloaded families, how has that experience informed you in this role as a Parent Advocate at Children's Wisconsin, and what what ultimately drives you to continue to do this very difficult work, especially knowing that it requires in many ways for you to continue to kind of lean back into what was clearly a very, very difficult time in your life, right? You, you were emotional in that last response. And particularly when you talked about kind of the the support that you're that your parents gave you in that very critical moment of like, if I don't have this support, right, now I am, I'm going to, I'm going to fall back into right into the habits of addiction, I'm not ready to just go out on my own. Right. And so thinking about that experience and what it meant for you, what is inspires you to do the work now and and how has this experience, informed your work, and then we'll get into kind of the nuts and bolts of the position itself?
Esmeralda Martinez 32:33
So very important part of what I just shared about my experience in residential treatment I left out. And that was the peer support specialists that were there, knowing that this was something that they had been through that they had overcome and seeing them in their, you know, their lives, and you know, how far they had come. Seeing that modeled was so valuable. It was so so valuable. And at the time, I don't think I would have been able to say that that was a very valuable part. But looking back now, I see how powerful that component was like. There was one in particular one peer specialist in particular that I can think of that seeing her determination how far she had come like, but this I don't want to share her story. It's not mine to share. But that that was that was really powerful. And I think again, it still for me to now have the equivalent of that, you know, parent peer support. Just knowing knowing how hard it is, knowing how much I wished I had met somebody like that sooner. Knowing how much I wished I had came across somebody, even a you know, just an acquaintance to go you can do it to that a little bit bit of encouragement. And that's what drives me if I can be that encouragement that was not present was not existent. That's what drives me. That's what motivates me. And I do it, it's hard at times. So I am kind of reliving revisiting some of the things that I faced, but But I work for a really good organization that checks in frequently to make sure that I'm doing fine. Plus, it makes me stronger, was it just makes it makes me better. It makes me better for my children. It's a reminder of how far I've come. It's a regular reminder of how far that I've come.
Luke Waldo 34:49
Thank you. So I want to I want to turn wholeheartedly into what what this role is right? Because you are our our lone Parent Advocate at Children's Wisconsin, the position has been around a little bit longer than then you've been with us. So I would imagine somewhere around two and a half, three years, my math is hazy these days coming out of COVID. But I think that's where we're at. I know it's been a priority. Haven't been having worked closely with the child welfare team for many years that this has been a priority for a long time. It's, it's clearly had its obstacles to get the position created and get it supported, as you mentioned, because that's really, really important, which we'll get into in a little bit. But if you can share what what the role is, and maybe share kind of a day in the life and I know, in this work, there is no, no day like the next day, right? But what do you find yourself often doing in the role as Parent Advocate?
Esmeralda Martinez 35:59
Well, I am a direct support for biological parents that are currently going through the Child Welfare process. What does that look like that? I always love answering this question, just so so many responses out. That could mean being a listening ear. Or when a parent wants to vent, I have been a kind of a mediator somebody to accompany a biological parent to a doctor visit so that they can still attend those visits for their child, I have been just a mode of transportation sometimes, you know, I remember how hard that was getting on the bus, in two feet of snow with three transfers and trying to make this obligation that had been set for me to, you know, show my willingness to provide care for my child, it was it's just it was insane. And so if I can be that kind of support, I'm always, you know, willing to try to make myself available. A mediator between parents and case management because they don't always see eye to eye and when you are going through the situation. It's easy to make just one person, the bad guy, it's easy to blame play place. And unfortunately, a lot of times that does become are the case managers that they work with most often indirectly. I have sat in parent child interactions. So the visits when parents have their visits, I've sat in on on visits. It's a lot.
Luke Waldo 37:41
No, no, it's a lot. So maybe that to hone in a bit more on some of the examples you shared. What do you hear from the parents that you work with when it comes to your greatest value in this role? What did they often turn to you and say I appreciate you for this? What are the things that you see? Or maybe they don't maybe they don't say that, but where do you see your your greatest impact or your greatest value for parents going through the system?
Esmeralda Martinez 38:19
Well, you know that acknowledgement doesn't happen as often as you think. There have been times where usually during a family team meeting or some kind of official gathering about the case where parents will acknowledge you know, this person is there for me, as me as me is there. She has helped so much and I am so grateful for that. But I also try to remember how I didn't acknowledge that that model behavior was so powerful for me when I was going through it, that peer support is something that I couldn't again, I couldn't have identified as, as something that made you know that big a difference but that exchange of stories that exchange of testimonies is It's encouraging, it's really, really encouraging.
Luke Waldo 39:12
You do see it because you've talked about some kind of mediation or just kind of being that bridge between the parent and the Family Case Manager, which again, for for those that don't speak child welfare is the person that is assigned right to be essentially the, the primary person on the case, right, that is there to support and provide the kind of referrals to services and so on for the parent, as well as the person that is going to be in the courtroom. Right. So you kind of report back the progress that the parents made, and so on. So as you've mentioned, Esme, there is a there is oftentimes, unfortunately, a tension between the family case manager and the parent, because the family case manager has to play a lot of different roles, both with the parent as well as with the kind of legal system, right? How have you seen your role serving is that bridge between the parent and the in the family case manager?
Esmeralda Martinez 40:19
Quite often it takes for somebody that they trust, to point out that this isn't there, this isn't really their decision, they're upholding a court's decision. They, it's really, really effective when I show legal documents, or I can read to them in order that says, These are the services that you have to complete. These are the behavior changes that they want to see, you know, it's not your case manager directly, it's not them as a person, it's their job to uphold these things. That has been actually really very effective when trying to create or open up that communication, or maybe less than that tension, as you said.
Luke Waldo 41:09
You bring up trust and there and that's that's a theme that we talk about a lot on this podcast, that we know right that when whether whether it comes to kind of treatment, right substance abuse treatment, or therapy, or kind of relationships, professional relationships, that trust, of course, is at the center, right of transformation, right or change. I'm curious how you see or you feel about and you can use go back to your example with the peer support specialists in Meta House, right? When you were in treatment yourself, is there a moment of kind of trust building or credibility that you believe happens? When when that peer support specialist or you in this parent advocate role share that you two have lived through this system at a minimum, right, you might not share the same experiences that led to the system, but you've experienced the system? Do you feel like that can build the trust or the credibility that unfortunately, it doesn't always exist naturally, between a case manager and the parent that's in the system right now?
Esmeralda Martinez 42:20
Indeed, absolutely. I think that is one of the, I want to say perks, that's one of the, that's a great aspect of this role is the case managers have to maintain professionalism, they have to be professional. And while I am the lived experience professional, I think opening up and sharing that human piece with somebody and saying, I understand, I'm human to look at me, I'm human, I don't have to be professional all the time. In fact, that's the part that I find the hardest is maintaining professionalism, because we're in these people's lives. You know, we are in every single part of these people's lives, in their homes, in their interaction with them and their children, something that should always be very private, if that's how you would like it to be and maintaining professionalism in something that involves something so intimate and personal is almost unrealistic. So I really do think that this role is is powerful in that regard, that sharing that human piece that I don't have to be professional and I need you to understand that I that I understand that there's nothing professional about your situation. There's nothing that needs to be professional about your situation, this is your life.
Luke Waldo 43:44
So I asked that question and kind of framed it the way I did very intentionally, because I in some ways expected you to share what you just shared, as, as an opportunity to really explore as you pointed out, this concept of professionalism, right? We're having this conversation within the context of our workforce innovation, and inclusion kind of critical pathway, right. And part of the inclusion piece, as well as the innovation piece is really exploring this idea of, quote unquote, professionalism within Human Services, or more specifically, in this case of child welfare or child maltreatment prevention work, right. In our field. I talked about in season one, the fact that when I started in this field, it particularly this field in in the US about 15 years ago, there was, as you pointed out this expectation that they there was a level of quote, unquote, professionalism, that meant really strict boundaries around your own lived experience. Right? What we know is that a large percentage of people that come into this field into child welfare, or into the mental health fields, right into the trauma fields, right into substance abuse field, have their own lived experience. That's what drives them to do this work, because they themselves have had struggle, hopefully have overcome those struggles, and are inspired by the kind of triumphs over those struggles, that leads them to want to bring it to other people's lives, right. And yet, we have been taught time and time again, that sharing kind of that experience that lived experience is quote, unquote, unprofessional, or overstepping boundaries. And this is a huge conversation that we are not going to have entirely today. But I do think it's really important that you planted that seed. And I want to kind of water that that seat. Because I do think it's an area that we need to better understand. And we have to explore it and nurture it, because the fact of the matter is you just pointed out I think your your response was, indeed, right. When I asked does your lived experience create credibility and trust? The answer was, indeed, there are a lot of family case managers, a lot of family support specialists that get children's Wisconsin have some form of lived experience, they may not have been in the child welfare system, but they may have struggled with childhood trauma, they may have struggled with substance abuse, they may have struggled with, right homelessness. And we need to explore, I believe, how we can use those experiences to inspire, right the relationship, the trust that is necessary for transformation to happen. Right. So I just I appreciate your response to that. I also appreciate how many times he said professionalism, because I think it shows no, I think it absolutely 100% shows how we've been taught, right to kind of button up, it's the term I use frequently in this in this sort of conversation, button up our experiences, kind of keep them down, keep them out. Right. And in many ways, it clearly creates a barrier between the quote unquote professional, and the individual and the family that they are serving, right, who they are responsible for, as you pointed out as me, this is this is not only a family's life, this is a family's future we're talking about. So to have to kind of button that all up. And in many ways then create this distance, this mistrust between that individual who really wants to help family case managers came into this work because they want to help. Right, let's not forget that they want to help. We've got to we've got to figure out that balance, right? It's not it's not an easy thing I'm not suggesting it is it's the reason why we're talking about it today. It's hard. But it's I think something that we need to explore more. So with that, I want to also recognize, and this is where we'll go into kind of you mentioned children's has been supportive, right? We are seeing a trend towards more peer support, more parent advocates more lived experience in our work. That's really important. That said, the support for and around people with lived experience is really important. Because as I've mentioned in our conversation, almost by definition, you are asked to lean back into your experience with the child welfare system, your experience with your most difficult and darkest moments, right? How do we support you as an institution? How do we support you as supervisors? Right so that you're able to do this work, and do it in a way that continues to nurture you nurture your journey, your healing journey, right? Nurture you, as a whole person, as a mother. Right, as as, as a student is all of the things that you are. So when you think about your role and the roles that are similar to yours, what would we need to do as children's and as other kind of system partners to make sure that you can do your job well, and you can do it well, for a long time so that you can be there for parents? Well,
Esmeralda Martinez 49:39
I am, I do feel very supported by by the agency, my direct supervisor is amazing. Amazing. By far, I can easily say the best boss that I've had my whole life. Her supervisor, also checks in with me regularly just to see how I'm doing how I'm holding up. I don't know that this would have been my response some months ago, but I'm finding I need somebody to share what I am experiencing as a parent advocate with another parent advocate. I need to know what you know, what is their experience looking like? What kind of things are working for them right now, it's just me and I have nothing to compare to. There is a parent partner with us at WellPoint. And she's great also. But it's, it's it's not somebody that that's there that I can communicate with regularly. So the same way case managers get together once a week with their team, and they discuss cases and this is what's happening, this is what's working, Hey, I found this resource, I need that same thing. And Children’s has done their best to create that team for me. However, without somebody doing the same work as me, I just don't feel like it's as effective as it would be if there was somebody else like me another support. That, and this is probably an answer for every department, every organization more funding. Getting close to these parents does I mean, it's a service, it's a support service, that's not mandatory, it you know, it's optional. And with everything that we're already asking these parents to commit to and to complete, even the kindest, most supportive person, I don't know that I would be willing to accept that one more thing on my plate that would add additional responsibility to my week. It is hard. So unfortunately, what seems to work most often, and I can see why, because it probably would have worked for myself as well, when I was going through it as incentive. So to incentivize these parents to kind of meet with and work with somebody that they don't know yet that they need something that's beneficial to them that they don't see as beneficial, or maybe as beneficial as it really actually is. So I don't know if I started with this, but more funding, more funding.
Luke Waldo 52:19
Yeah, I think I've got I've got two questions here to kind of round out the conversation about the role, the value of the role and some real challenges, I'm sure that you're still experiencing or working through or discovering, before we kind of round out with looking forward, right. So the first is around a little bit of what you just said, with funding and the kind of almost inherent mistrust that like the parent is going to have, you are a parent advocate. But at the end of the day, you wear the same badge that I were at Children's Wisconsin, right? It still says, Esme Martinez, Children's Wisconsin, and Children's Wisconsin, for these parents in this moment, is the organization that they're looking at as being responsible for having been a part of at least separating them from their children. Right? How have you seen that kind of tension of being a parent advocate, but part of an organization or part of the system that is also employing their family case manager and their family support specialists? Who is ultimately they're making kind of a lot of the decisions as to whether or not their child will come home or not. Can you talk a little bit about that? That tension?
Esmeralda Martinez 53:51
Yeah, I can't believe actually that I haven't said this yet. One perfect piece to my role is that I don't have to share anything that the parent and I discuss if it's not a if it's not a danger or a threat to themselves to others or their children. Anything that they share with me is confidential and will remain confidential. Unless it's something they would like for me to share. That yeah, that's the beauty of the role I have. And it does happen when a parent is venting. And it's I am included, I am grouped in that, you know, that negative blame me that you guys this and you guys did that, you know, focusing on the issue at hand, not looking at what went wrong, but looking at how to move forward with it pointing out what is more systemic, what is more a systemic issue, as opposed to an agency issue, reminding them that they are not the only ones reminding them? That? Again, I frequently remind them that you know, anything that you say, I don't you know, I will not share unless you want me to it stays right here, which does open up for it does create more trust. I don't know that I answered your questions.
Luke Waldo 55:13
It does. And I know it's not an easy question, because it's, I'm sure, still in many ways, right? You're, you're not new to the role, but the role is still relatively new. Right. And so, navigating that, I'm sure is something that's not come up, hopefully not come up a lot. But it was I was just curious if if you had seen kind of some mistrust, even with you being a Parent Advocate, because you wear the same badge as those that are, you know, they're oftentimes looking at as kind of keeping their kids from them. Right. So, no, that's helpful. So the last question about your role that I'm really curious about resumes, is how do you how have you been involved in kind of the decision making tables, right? So you're, you're bringing not only your own experience, but you are now as you just shared, also bringing the experience of the parents you're advocating for, and you're seeing or hearing stories that a family case manager might not hear, right? Because they do because of the fact that you have this kind of confidentiality with them, they're probably feeling more free to share their experiences with you in a way that they might not to the Family Case Manager or the court system, so on. So I'm curious how you feel like you've been included in some of the decision making tables, right, whether that's with your supervisor, your manager, with, you know, the family team meetings with other kinds of systems level kind of committees, and so on, to be able to bring that perspective. And and then once you've answered that, the the how you've been involved? Do you feel like the perspective you're bringing is making a difference is being heard? Is it changing how we think about our work?
Esmeralda Martinez 57:12
Yeah. So the perspective and opinion of the role is incredibly valued. Here at Children's, not myself as a person, but the role and my lived experience has been given a lot of space, it's been given a lot of a very powerful voice in the operations of different departments. I know I've had a meeting with family support, and you know, asked How could they better support parents, I have been allowed to be a part of a lot of focus groups that whose intentions are honing in on issues that are unseen and where we could improve in regard to systemic change and processes. So I gave an example of when I was young, and I moved out, and I got my first place. I was so certain that I had it all together, I made checklists. I went through my day over and over in my head, like, yeah, there's nothing missing. In my day, I think I'll have everything I need. And of course, I moved in and everything set up and it's beautiful. And it's great. And I go about my day, and I'm like, Oh, my goodness, how did I forget the stinking garbage can? For about a week, we were using shopping bags as a garbage can. And I I say that and I use that experience to be like, it's not until you actually go through a process that you are able to notice. And first, not unforeseen, but things that you missed. I know, a garbage can. It sounds so simple, but for somebody who has never taught for somebody who has never shown for someone who that's never been an expense for that was something that I took for granted and similar to this entire process. There's so many parts and things that you know, people were never shown People were never taught and that a lot of us take for granted. So I use that story to explain kind of help, what, how my role has helped. There's things that you just can't foresee can't plan for until it's actually something that you've done. So those closest to the problem are those who are best suited to help fix it. Is that a saying? You think?
Luke Waldo 59:34
If it's not, it should be. It's, it's no, it's really well said, in fact, the way you started, it may have been almost word for word with Mark Cabaj, who is one of our systems partners who was in the second episode of the season. Yes. He and Liz Weaver both, both our Canadian friends talked about those that are closest to the problem, right, are the ones that are going to inspire the most practical solutions, right, something along those lines. So what you just said. Absolutely makes a ton of sense. So I know I love the I love the garbage can example, because it's not just about because I, you know, I think some people might be thinking, well, family case managers have been through this system. 100 times it's their job, right? They've been through the process. But they've not been in the apartment, where they have to cook and clean every day that doesn't have the garbage can. Right. They know, they, they they can tell the client who lives in that apartment, that they're missing a garbage can. But it's it's another thing to have to figure out how I get the garbage can, how we get it without any extra money, right? How I do it when I don't have a car, right? How am I going to load it up on the bus, all of these sort of things that you already talked about? Right? It's like that it's just different. Right in and there's, again, it goes back to the importance of trust, the importance of empathy, right? And empathy is just easier when we've been through it. Right? I mean, it just is because we feel it in a different way. Right. So. So I really appreciate that. That example, I think it brings home this, this idea of, of, of why a parent advocate or a peer support specialist is so important for people that are are in it in this moment, so So with that, I want to finish our conversation with what makes you optimistic about not only your role, but really kind of this direction that we're heading with more intern advocates, more peer support specialists more kind of emphasis on the value of lived experience in our work?
Esmeralda Martinez 1:02:01
Well, the changes that I am seeing, like my experiences with the parents, personally that I work with in the progress that I see them make, and that is incredibly powerful. In addition, maybe I'd like to add to that the systemic change, part, processes and systemic change takes a long time, I don't think before working here, I could have never imagined what each and every one of these steps in parts looks like and how many meetings have to be held and the different parties that have to be approved and the funding for that entire process. And there's so many parts in it. And it does take a long time. The the better the power. The upside to that is that I see the genuineness. I see this sincerity in the people that are leading these movements or meetings for systemic change. A lot of the focus groups that I have been a part of. Again, you know, the people that are facilitating, guiding, sponsoring it, I can I can see the sincerity in their understanding for the need to change. And I think, really, really powerful is I'm starting to see the acknowledgement of the human piece of it is something that I didn't see I didn't experience what it was me going through the process five years ago, and perhaps it was because I wasn't a part of these conversations. But now I'm definitely I can definitely see not just like the need, but the acknowledgement of that need and yeah, all of that.
Luke Waldo 1:03:57
Well, I think that's that's a great place to end, Esme, you've been really really generous in I'm sharing today, your story. It's been, again, incredibly inspirational to listen to, to your journey to how much of yourself you put into your work with, with those that have, or that are experiencing, what you have experienced in the past, and how how you can you can sense the optimism in in your response, even while understanding the real complexity of this work, right. As you just mentioned in that final response, it's the, these these these solutions might might seem simple on the surface, but we have created very complex systems that make change oftentimes, very, very difficult. But I inspired by the work that you do, I'm inspired by the person that you are and and I appreciate you taking the time to, to share a bit of that today.
Esmeralda Martinez 1:05:10
Oh, no, thank you for having me. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you for listening.
Luke Waldo 1:05:27
I want to thank Esme again for having this courageous conversation with me. I hope that today’s episode and insights from Esme have you thinking more about how we might center and learn from those with lived experience, so that we might more genuinely advance these movements to meet the promise of “Nothing about us, without us”. As always, I want to highlight three key takeaways to reflect on before we move onto our next episodes.
Thank you for joining us for today’s conversation. We hope that you will come back and listen next week as we continue to explore the Critical Pathways that lead to child and family well-being and reduce family separations for reasons of neglect.
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To learn more about the experts that you heard today, visit the Show Notes, which is where you will also find links to sources or information that were mentioned in today’s episode.
Thank you again for joining us. See you next week.
This podcast would not have been possible without the support and talents of Carrie Wade, who is responsible for our technical production and original music composition. I can't express my gratitude enough to Carrie for all she has given to this project. I'm also grateful to my team at the Institute for Child and Family Well-being at Children’s Wisconsin, who drive the Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative and contributed to the ideas behind this podcast. Finally, I would like to thank all of our speakers that you have heard today and throughout the podcast for their partnership, their willingness to share their stories and expertise with me and all of you and their commitment to improving the lives of children and families. I'm Luke Waldo, your Host and Executive Editor. Thanks again for listening and see you next time.